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I just skimmed through a web page by a guy named Till that was about the bible's errors in prophesy. Most of the "prophesies" fulfilled in the New Testament can actually be coupled with a scripture in the Old. There are some good cases, as Till pointed out where some bible scholars throw their hands up in the air and say "I can't explain it". But you never here of one of the scholars taking that as evidence that the Bible is not divine inspiration; it was the writing of the Bible that was inspired, not the preservation over thousands of years. There is bound to be tons of ancient scriptures that are not contained in the Bible as we know it today, but were present to the Apostles in the 1st century, don't you think? Fires and natural disasters could have easily wiped out portions of old scriptures and prophesies. Just because we can't find Jeremiah's prophesy about the potter's field in his Old Testament book doesn't mean that he never wrote it. It is likely that Jeremiah as well as many other prophets wrote MUCH more than what is in our Bible today.
More importantly, let me pose a question. I am assuming that the person who is reading this letter is intelligent and well educated. We have two choices in life: 1. to believe in God, 2. to not believe in God. If there were a God and we did not believe in Him, He would likely have some sort of punishment for us. If there were no God and we did not believe in one, no big deal. If there is a God, and we believe in Him, we will likely be rewarded. And lastly, If we believe in God and there is none, then no big deal. It is like playing the stock market: The risk of Hell when you do not believe in God is 50%, the opportunity of Heaven is 0%. When you believe, the risk of Hell is 0% and the opportunity of Heaven is 50%. Which stock would you choose?
Thanks for reading
[This message was sent in response to " Review of Mere Christianity" by "The Fool".]
All you seem to be saying here is that a 'comfortable atheist or committed agnostic' is one who would never be swayed by theistic argument. That assumes that there is no real God to 'give in to'. If God does exist then disbelieving in him won't make him any less real. In that case it might be possible to be a truly convinced atheist before arriving at the 'truth'.
Hi. University of Maine student Craig Sheerin here. I've been trying two years now to get the university to stop paying for Xmas decorations with state and student funds. Not much luck. The local ACLU, less than helpful with "wait 50 years" advice. Tell me where I can turn for help and ideas? Thanks.
I am excited to see this information on the web. Do you have weekly or monthly e-mailings I could be a part of? Keep it up!
I have recently been connected to the internet and have been looking for information about humanism when I came across your page. I wonder if you could supply me with a name and address for a British Humanist Society (if such a thing exists). If not cold you help me out with a small problem. I am a secondary school teacher and as such am occasionally required to prepare whole school assemblies. I have no personal religious belief but would like to present something of a moral nature. Could you suggest any suitable publications where I any find some suitable material for a short assembly/service. Thanks in anticipation of any help you can give me.
[This message was sent in response to "The Rationalist's Manual" by M.D. Aletheia.]
Bravo! You have done it! You have explained it all! You and your great wisdom must be now worshipped. You are our new god, gods, godess and/or godesses! I know now I was a frog at one time but now I'm a prince. However, you and your evolution theory should kiss the rest of the frogs so that they may also turn into princes. God bless you or maybe curse you which ever you perfer.
[This message was sent in response to "The Bible and the Jesus Myth" by American Atheists.]
Dear Atheists,
Your commentary on Christianity reveals that you are neither educated in orthodox Christian theology nor Judiasm. I find it hard to understand how one can "objectively" critique something they clearly do not understand. This implicates that you are prejudice against the subject. Atheism, nor any other set of beliefs are not the danger in themselves, it is prejudice and man's selfishness that is more harmful to humanity. Most of humanity is moved by action and example, not arguments. Perhaps you could expend your energy helping others instead of arguing your beliefs. I support you right to belife what you want and much luck and good fortune to you. In the menatime, I will pray for you tonight that your heart will soften towards God... may God help you.
[This message was sent in response to "The God Politic".]
Thank you for a wonderfully succint story. I would be greatly interested in publishing it in the small, independent press magazine I edit/publish called Suffusion in Lincoln, NE. We need material for our November '96 and February '97 issues, and I would enjoy seeing "The God Politic" in there. Payment is in contributor's copy.
Let me know what you think.
Please send info. need help, but turned off by jehovah witness approach of AA bought it for 10 years & was sober can't take it anymore need help very much every place I seek help is dominated by AA religious nazis. HELP!!!!! Please
Organized religion has gone afield of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Am I to assume, you are not disputing the teachings but only the 'for profit' application ot those teachings, and am I to assume that this position of 'infidel' is to provoke?
I'm a webmaster at the Nizkor Project, a site dedicated to exposing and refuting modern Nazis and Holocaust-deniers. We're just about to make a new "feature" public, a collection of information about fallacies by Michael C. Labossiere that I've converted to HTML format. I'm cross-linking to your Constructing a Logical Argument page (I couldn't get a connection at domino.org but I assume that's temporary).
Just thought you might like to know. :-)
The Constructing a Logical Argument page is quite good, BTW, IMHO -- complete and succinct...
Internet Infidels' Response:
Domino's gone permanently. The definitive copy of the pages is http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/
I'll put a link to your pages on the Constructing a Logical Argument page.
Is there a chat channel for SOS on the web?
Are there members in my community, Louisville, KY
Agree totally with your approach.
Help sought with AA was like talking to Jehovah's Witness. Please respond, someone.
[This message was sent in response to " New Testament Contradictions" by Paul Carlson.]
Hi, don't want to come across as judgemental, but being a Christian that is what I am supposed to say isn't. What I would like to know is how you base your conclusions on these topics. I have printed them out and would like to reply to these conclusions, however I am sure you have a lot of return mail. Give me an e-mail sometime. Thanks.
[This message was sent in response to the " Internet Infidels" page. It was sent with a bogus return address of "Turn the radio on (Scott)".]
congradulations, satanic orientated morons, you win the golden moron award for 96
all I can say to you is one day you will have to answer to Him, and it ain't going to be cool, and hell aint a blast!
Hello, Could you please send me some info on defending my athiests beliefs.
What you are doing is fantastic. Free thinkers everywhere should stand up and cheer!
Do you have a listing of the items you have available? If so, I would be interested in seeing it...
After reading parts of your writings on Josh McDowell I was compelled to encourage you on your thinking about the case that Josh writes about. On the other hand, I would also encourage you to share your personal beliefs about Jesus Christ. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Why/Why Not? What is your case?
I have come to believe that religion is the single most negative and divisive force in the world. I appreciate your work in combating this evil with the truth.
> As I read through your various materials, Iv'e found myself asking
>
this question is there any argument that would convince you of the
> truth of Christianity,
Internet Infidels' Response: In my case, the answer to the above question is definitely a "yes."
> or have you convinced yourselves that no matter
> what, you will not believe?
In my case, the answer to the above is a definite "no."
>
I don't think there is anything that would satisfy your limitless
>
form of reluctance.
You are not alone in thinking this. Many believers seem to think this. Perhaps it is the only way that you and they can reconcile the fact that there are people who honestly look at the Bible and Christianity and reject both.
As a matter of fact, many of the Internet Infidels (II) are, themselves, former Christians. In my own case, I was a born-again, Bible-believing, fundamentalist.
I cannot speak for others, but it is my personal opinion that many persons who are Christians and who feel the way that you do do not realize the wealth of scholarly evidence (including that supplied by Christian scholars) that the Bible is not what most Christians think it is and that Jesus is not who most Christians think he was.
So, the very same kind of thing that you suspect of us, that we are not open to the possibility that the Bible is the Word of God and Jesus is Lord and Savior, for example, can be brought against you as a criticism: that you are not open to the possibility that you are wrong and there is nothing that would convince you that you are mistaken.
> After all, no matter how many apologists you attempt
> to refute, or Bible difficulties you try and make more difficult, the fact
> remains that there will always be an explanation that is tenable,
> and as long as that stands, it really is just an issue of what
>
kind of bias one wants to have.
A "tenable" explanation does not do away with a problem. "How it might have been" scenarios can be proposed to support belief in any so-called holy book including those that you would deny the truth of (such as the Book of Mormon, for example).
> You could accuse me of the same thing from your point of view,
>and that's fine.
True, I just did.
>I used to be one of you, but I made a choice to put my faith in God
Why did you chose this particular God?
> rather than in my or anyone else's attempt to explain him out of
> existence with our limited human perspective.
On the contrary, you chose this particular God because you put your faith in the attempt of others to explain God from the point of view of "limited human perspective." You know little or nothing about God other than what people have told you. Had you lived in another area of the world, you would have heard about a different God and would have likely decided to put your faith there.
Do you think, for example--that had you been born and raised in Iran, or Japan, or China--you would now be a Christian? Not likely.
> And if we're honest about this, is
> it really that He made so many insurmountable blunders in His
> communication to us about Himself, or is it just that we want so
> desperately to live as we please, often times worshipping our
> genitals and anything else that suits our fancy, rather than
> surrender to his will?
A perfect, loving, good, omnipotent, omniscient deity could have, should have, and would have done a better job of it than the alleged Yahweh has done. The probability that such a God would remain basically mute for thousands of years and allow a Satan to play games with us is essentially nil.
> It is obvious that some of you have gone to great lengths
> to promote your position, and I'm impressed with your knowledge
> of the issues.
It is also obvious that some apologists have gone to great lengths to promote their positions, and in some cases with very little real knowledge of the issues. C. S. Lewis and Josh McDowell come to mind as two examples.
>
I hope that you are willing to examine your motivation and
> to truly go the distance on this issue by desiring the supernatural
> revelation of your creator and welcoming this, if he is out there.
> And if you say to that, "a subjective experience doesn't
> prove anything", you really aren't allowing for anything, are
>
you?
Subjective experiences and faith can lead anywhere, not necessarily to your God.
What is wrong with an OBJECTIVE experience? Don't you think that your God owes it to mankind to reveal his/her/its existence in a believable, objective way? I believe that your God is reprehensible for not taking his/her/its responsibility in the matter.
Regards,
[This message was sent in response to "The Virgin Birth and Childhood Mysteries of Jesus" by James Still.]
I would like to disagree with you that the concept of the virgin birth of Jesus is has become something that nobody believes in anymore.
There are 800 million Catholics in the world that very much believe in the virgin birth of Jesus to Mary. 800 million people does not a tiny cult make.
[This message was sent in response to "Criticism of `Why I Believe'" by Alex Matulich .]
Let me preface this by saying that I am no theologian, just an independent thinker who wears the helmet of salvation despite my worldly sins. Whether you recognize it as such or not, it is the holy spirit which continues to draw you to the word. That alone distinguishes it from any other book in what I'm sure is an extensive library. It is proof enough for me that I exist, therefore God is. Where in your dismissal of the biblical truths is your proof that life and universe began any other way than divine intervention? You're picking at needles on a pinecone in a forest of truths. It is proof enough to me that Jesus walked this earth in human form. His teachings sparked the spreading of the gospel throughout the inhabited earth, messages that we continue to spread today. No other "teacher", "carpenter" or ruler can make this claim. It is proof enough to me that the holy spirit exists when I feel it touch my heart and work in my life. It is the holy spirit which will one day reveal its messages, in all their clarity and simplicity, to you. The Bible is inspired by God, written and translated by mere mortals like you and I. Even without accounting for man's errors in translation from the Spirit of God, there are enough figures of speech, rhetorical questions , etc. (you know what I mean) to keep us from having to prove/disprove every word literally. God's word emanates from a higher plane. As to what seminarians think, either way, I couldn't care less. At the time of crucifixion, that noon when darkness covered the earth, the veil/curtain of the temples was forever torn in two. Jesus became our way to salvation, not the priests in their exclusive temples. There is no need for either of your treastises. A true believer doesn't need an agenda or flowchart to justify his belief and faith. Scholarly exercises will carry no weight on Judgement Day.
Sign me --- 'Cause my Bible tells me so.
For your amusement (?) -
When I was in 2nd grade, I lived in Lawton, OK. One afternoon, I was playing in the street with friends a few houses down from mine.
A bus pulled up and two well-dressed adults disembarked. They very sweetly gathered me and my friends together and herded us onto the bus, asked our names, and recorded something on a clipboard. We criss-crossed the rest of the neighborhood, stopping a number of times to pick up more kids.
Eventually, we were driven to a church, and spent the day listening to sermons and religious instruction. I still remember being taught to sign the song "Yes Jesus Loves Me" in sign language (why, I don't know, since I was not deaf).
After several hours of this rather bewildering indoctrination, we were put back on the bus and returned to the streets from which we were taken.
My parents, of course, were shocked. They actually managed to locate these people but they refused to admit they had done anything wrong. In their eyes they were "saving the children".
I remember this incident quite clearly, but wasn't really aware that it had been a religious abduction until recently. It came up in conversation while I was reminiscing with my parents about the many places we'd lived during my father's career in the military.
Sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction...
I was reading the December mail, and noticed your response to someone who offered to help. You indicated you could use transcribers and/or typists.
I have been an atheist for a good number of years (most of them in the closet). About a year ago I discovered the atheist online communities, and they have changed my life. I have been out of the closet since then, and have never felt better about myself. Anyhow, the point is that I would like to give something back to this community. So if you can use some help typing or transcribing, let me know what I can do. I don't think I can type an entire book without going crazy, but I'm willing to do what I can.
What's going on with the works of Mr. Ingersol? All of them say an error occured while preparing the document. Any feedback?
Internet Infidels' Response:
If I'm not mistaken, the error you are seeing is, "An error occurred while processing this directive." We are using a server-side include to display the file size in kilobytes. For some reason we do not yet understand, this stopped working in mid-December, about the same time our Stats page went down. I think this may be related to the fact that we're now using a different server, although this pure speculation on my part. You should still be able to read Ingersoll's works with no problem, though. Let us know if you can't.
Is there really a need for proof? If someone really believes in something, it could happen. Odds are only statistics put on paper. I think everyone who dies will really be surprised. Or if reincarnation truly exists, then there may be no plausible explanation. Look on the bright side: maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. If not, you guys had better start living, and do it now, while their is time.
Internet Infidels' Response:
But if there is no evidence for the existence of God, the atheist or agnostic is amply justified in lacking the belief that gods exist. Moreover, all the belief in the world won't make God exist if she didn't already.
Your story is flaky without a valid source and names of bona fide scholars. Is this the image you wish to project?
Don't be foolish. Take care of your reputation and that of other infidels.
Is that your response? The discovery didn't happen?
Bummer! Discussion ends here. Bye.
Internet Infidels' Response:
We have no idea what you are talking about.
To whom it may concern
We here at the institute of MBC, wish to take time out to inform you that we found your section on the internet very invigorating. We also to congratulate you on your outstanding work, as we here are very studious and intellectually stimulation people. Thanks again Sayonara
Please SPEAK OUT for FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM FROM CENSORSHIP, especially on the INTERNET!!!
I Parent my daughter when she is "surfing" the "Web"
Thanks,
P.S. You could be censored too!! (soon?)
Internet Infidels' Response:
I think this is a significant, non-trivial possibility. As an alumni of a Christian university, I can remember the implicit censorship of non-Christian newsgroups. I had to *ask* the system administrator to add talk.atheism and soc.atheism. Fortunately for me, he did so. But the situation could have turned out quite differently with a different sys admin. (And I have no doubt that many Christian schools do ban the atheist newsgroups.) This is no different than Christian radio stations, Christian bookstores, Christian libraries, and Christian websites. Sure, you might occasionally find one that is open-minded enough to acknowledge "the other side," but that person is the exception, not the rule. This is in stark contrast to almost every atheistic web site, bookseller, library, etc., which *do* acknowledge the other side. The simple fact of the matter is that Christians, by and large, try to be as one-sided as they can get away with. (As an aside, that's why I find the creationists' demand for `equal time' so hypocritical, but that's another thread for another time.)
Thanks for your message. Take care!
When I was a young man - some sixty years ago - I was given a book which became a sort of bible to me. It was written by R.G. Ingersoll and was titled "Lectures and Essays of R.G. Ingersoll."
That cherished book was eventually lost to me. Can you tell me if it has ever been reprinted and where I may obtain a copy? Over the years I have searched second hand book stores and libraries to no avail.
His (R.G.I.) lectures and essays would be as relevant today as they were when he wrote then in the late 1800's.
i READ IT AGAIN AND STILL WONDER.
Internet Infidels' Response:
I read this response and wonder, too.
Hello there.
Recently, I asked and was given permission from Farrell Till to quote from the work he has contributed to and which appears on your web page. That work has to do with prophecy and fulfillment (or the lack thereof) and which I wish to use in a discussion group to which I have belonged for over a year now, that is, OBJ-REL, OBjective Discussion of Religion. We are a small number of folks (30 or so) who manage to actually exchange intelligent viewpoints without crossing over into vitriole--at least, for the most part. I would really appreciate getting permission from you guys to employ the use of certain of your ownb passages in our discussion of matters relating to Christian origins. Is this okay? Sure hope so, as I noticed your HTML copyright notice . Thanx in advance.
Internet Infidels' Response:
The Secular Web is copyright protected by the Internet Infidels and Brett Lemoine. Contents of the Secular Web may not be reproduced for profit without the expressed written consent of Brett Lemoine. Permission is granted to electronically distribute any and all material on the Secular Web over the Internet or elsewhere--and in fact is highly encouraged--provided the material is not sold for profit and the following notice is retained.
These files, and many more are available at the Secular Web:
http://www.infidels.org/.
For more information send mail to infidel@www.infidels.org.
Note that some files are also protected under other additional copyrights.
[This message was in response to "Why I Believe" by Alex Matulich.]
I've skimmed your comments. Very honest and logical discussion. Will get back to you later. pastor cw
we will all be judged
Internet Infidels' Response:
I already have been -- second place in the "Smart Aleck" category right behind Dorothy Parker.
[This message was in response to "The Dark Bible" by anonymous.]
Dear Infidel (Since you dare not give your name):
While I accept the need for freedom of speech, and wish that this once great country would be fair to all on this right (but not to those who speak for Christ or the unborn child) I see the damage that this "Dark Bible" is doing to others. Others who read this opinion called the Dark Bible suck it in and accept it as a defense against actually reading the Bible in its full context. Anyone can cut up a newspaper and reorganize it and make it say just about anything. Taking scriptures out of context and then knocking down a strawman arguement is the oldest logical error of all anti-biblical literature. That is exactly what this Dark Bible does. Not to be mean, but you ironically named your critque on the Bible correctly, your redition is trully uninspired (by the Light that created it) and as thus is in the dark.
Have you ever read through the WHOLE Bible, not just hopping around? Have you ever asked Jesus (the author and finisher of the Bible) to enlighten you as you read the Bible verses with a open mind? I'm sure you have not. Until you do, this Dark Bible commentary of yours is just your opinion, based on very little knowledge. Jesus said that He feely gives understanding to those who inquire. But reading the Bible with an agenda to discredit and use Evolution as fact is going to cloud your ability to be a seeker of truth.
A friend of mine qouted to me an excerpt of yours "God Kills The Firstborns!" I will share with you my response to this article. But what is typical of those who rail against the Bible (Evolutionists especially) is that they are always just passing around others thoughts but don't think for themselves. Evolution itself takes on this character. It is believed as Fact, but I am still awaiting the first hard evidence of transitional forms in fossil or current form. Evolution is a faith.
But back to your article, here's my rebuttal. Fortunately it had a good impact on this friend. So at least you article opened the door for discussion. For that I thank you.
If your Bible is true Your God is Baaaaad Dude too....
This certainly doesn't sound like anyone worth worshipping!
There is an infinite difference between killing due to righteous judgement and killing for unrighteous wanton bloodletting or in fear (as with Pharoh).
That difference is keyed to the word: righteous.
The Bible teaches absolute truths, ie right from wrong. The only "grey" is where man doesn't have all the facts. But God himself is never in the dark, so for Him, all is white or black.
God Himself holds for Himself the right to judge His creation. That is why it is not for man to judge the salvation of another. He alone knows if and when each and every one of us will either reject or accept His lordship over our lives. If we reject Him, we have condemned ourselves, and judgement is in His timing and in His way. If we accept Him, He is mercyful and forgives our trespasses and grants us eternity with Him.
As for the slaying of the Egyptian 1st born, you forget the whole picture. Moses was a first born also. Pharoh declared that ALL male children where to be killed because the Israelites where becoming more numberous than the Egyptians themselves. So out of fear they decreed to kill all male newborns.
Moses was hidden from the soldiers, and infact was found in a basket and taken in by the Pharoah's sister who was childless. After Moses grew up and left Egypt, he came back to free the Israelites who where enslaved by Pharoh and cruelly worked to death.
Moses pleaded several times with Pharoh to let his people go. Pharoh hardened his heart to Moses pleas (which where told to him a way out of this judgement, but it would take faith to secure the safety. This is lamb's blood symbolized Jesus the lamb of God who takes away the sins of those who put thier faith in Him. The doorway symbolizes the door of the heart, or place of willful choice. Christians are those who choose to have the lamb of God's blood over their door post of thier hearts. Sinners saved by faith in the lamb of God. This event was called Passover. The passing over of the judgement of God. By the way, this was on Friday the 13th on the securlar calendar. Guess where that old tradition started. Passover is bad "luck" for those of no faith.
God is more merciful and patient than is man (or Pharoh - King in Egypt). Man doesn't give a way out, and certainly doesn't sacrifice himself for his enemies who put their faith in him.
Frankly speaking, EVERY living creature's life is in the hands of God. He could at any time remove his living breath from Pharoh or even Thomas or Ted. But it is His grace and Mercy that allows us to live even though most reject and curse Him. He is VERY, VERY, VERY patient.
And as far as judgement goes. A country that has rejected God and worship calves and frogs and fleas and the river (as did Egypt) has already put themselves into condemnation and inevidable judgement. Frankly put, the plagues of Egypt where focused upon thier idol gods. Some help they where when they needed them. The Egyptians even despised thier gods when they had sickly calves, frogs everywhere, fleas everywhere and blood red Nile river. God showed them the folly of placing faith in false gods.
It is unloving to let a rabid dog loose in the neighborhood. It will eventually hurt itself and innocent others. God allows even totally heathen countries to exist for a while. But eventually the evil rapid dog is dealt with. In the case of a rabid dog, it might not have had any choice but in the case of human beings we are responsible for our choices. That's why God holds us accountable for the freedoms he has given us. If we reject his provision for our sinful ways, that being the sacrifice of His own Son (who knew NO evil, yet suffered at our hands) then ultimately there comes a day of judgement. It is His creation, like it or not. Thems the rules.
Ted, I don't hate or blame you for your unbalanced consistant banterings about God. I too at one time did not read or understand the Bible. But I can kick the dirt, throw a fit, curse the heavens - that don't change the laws of gravity any more than that changes God's laws and requirements of His creation.
But one thing is very clear. You consistantly choose to side opposite to the truths of the Bible. This clearly put you in judgements way. And if you persist, God will give you what you asked for. That being all the horrors of woshiping an idol other than Him. That is what the Bible verses you cited are saying. Its a fact of life. These aren't just "storys", but are Gods message to teach us from others mistakes and triumphs. That is why the Bible has an impeccable historical content. It is fact, not fiction.
For your sake, Ted. Come and let's reason together and see if the Lord is not good.
God Kills The Firstborns!
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians and there was a great cry in Egypt for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
Comment
If we believe every word in the Bible as coming from God, then it stands to reason that the violent actions from the God described in Exodus cannot give us a moral comparison to live our lives in a peaceful world.
If one wishes to believe that God possess love for His creations, then the killing of innocent children cannot possibly come from God, and therefore, these verses from the Bible must have come elsewhere. But note that if one takes the Bible's words as truth, then not only did God smote the firstborn children, but all firstborn regardless of age. This means children of all ages, teenagers, men, women, and the aged. No matter how much love or goodness they may have imparted to the world, if they were unlucky to have first passed through their mothers vagina, they were to be killed by God.
As a final note, Tamus was a form of an anti-christ. He was worshiped in Babylon because he was believed to have died and was resurrected. Sound familiar? Satan has been in the copycat business for a long time. He is the Father of Lies. But he is not creative. Only God is creative.
It is my prayer that you will see the Light and repent of your present position. But yes, you are entitled to your choice as thus you will be accountable for your decisions. God has given you that freedom.
I well come intelligent rebuttal, but will ignore a response of fume and smoke. Most often the only response to a Biblical answer is anger and more darkness. Come, let us reason together and see that the Lord is good.
BRAVO !! I just discovered your thread. Well thought out, and well put together. Unfortunately the peolple who NEED to read thru it wont, they don't seem to like INTELLIGENT discourse. But, none the less, GOOD JOB !
I've just finished struggling through the review on "evidence that demands a verdict" and I must say that I found it quite amusing. Imagine a man (such as the author of this article) spending all those years to get a Phd. and know so litte (John wasn't an apostle?). This 'logic' and 'reason' you speak of denotes a certain snobbish superiority, which you may want to re-evaluate. I would say that the man who thinks he has everything figured out, in reality has very little knowledge. Being a Christian, I believe that we came from a Supernatural Being (God). You believe we came from a rock (evolution). It truly does take more faith to be an athiest than it does to be a Christian. You can choose to believe in something that is scientifically disproven, in order to not believe in God. God is not subject to your laws of science and logic, the very things that you let govern your life. I would be amused to see you point out even one of these supposed 'contradictions' in Scripture. And by the way, you may want to add a small correction to the article. Men did not pick the books that would eventuall make up the canon of the New Testament. The body of believers at that time (from all over the world) met at the council of Carthage in A.D.397. At this time, they affirmed the 27 books of the New Testament. There were many books floating around, but these were the 27 books that they all accepted as inspired. They had all been using them all along. They did not choose the books, they simply affirmed what God had already laid on their hearts. This is a historically documented fact. Anyway, God did die for you as much as He did for me, and He still does love you and will accept you regardless of the ridiculous comments you are making about Him.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Thank you for your message. The author of the article you are responding to, Dr. Gordon Stein, does not have an email account and could not be reached for comment. Although I do not pretend to speak for Dr. Stein, I would like to comment on a couple of your remarks.
1. You seem to take it for granted that evolution and Christianity are logically incompatible. I fully agree that evolution is incompatible with specific Protestant denominations, but to claim that evolution is incompatible with Christianity reveals a "snobbish superiority" much greater than anything Dr. Stein has written. The simple fact of the matter is that Christianity stands or falls on the alleged resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15), not a literal creation. There is absolutely no logical inconsistency between accepting both Jesus' resurrection and biological evolution.
2. As for the assertion that "it takes more faith to be be an atheist than it does to be a Christian," that would depend on your definition of faith. If you define `faith' as proportioning belief to the evidence, then I gladly plead guilty to having such `faith.' If, on the other hand, you are assuming the Biblical definition of faith found in Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (NRSV), then I must disagree with you. Scientists don't "hope for" evolution to be true; they accept biological evolution because all of the available evidence supports it. Creationists on the other hand "do hope" for creationism to be true. If anybody has "faith," it is not those who accept biological evolution. For more information on the evidence for evolution and against creationism, I refer you to the talk.origins FAQ archive.
3. Regarding the canon of the New Testament, there does not seem to be any good reason for regarding the canonization process as "objective." On the contrary, what little we do know suggests this procedure was entirely arbitrary. Even on McDowell's view, the Church selected texts according to the following criteria:
The first four criteria require subjective judgment. Usually, the works considered authoritative, prophetic, authentic and dynamic are the books that include doctrines and material that you basically agree with.
As for the fifth criterion, there is no one set of books received, collected, read and used by the entire Christian Church. As documented below, no canon existed for the first 300 years of the church; the use of books varied over time and location; entire national churches to this day use a list of inspired books either longer or shorter than that used by American Protestants.
4. It is difficult to believe that your god "does love me" when he hasn't even attempted to get in touch with me. Normally when someone wants to be your friend, they will communicate with you somehow (in person, letters, phone calls, email, etc.). To my knowledge, I have not been visited by your god. I haven't received any letters, phone calls, or emails from your god, either. Granted, this doesn't mean your god doesn't exist, but this does make it difficult to believe there is a supernatural entity who desires a personal relationship with *me*.
Sincerely,
[This message was in response to " Joseph McCabe: Fighter for Freethought" by Issac Goldberg.]
There is a book called "The Myth of the Resurrection and other Essays" by Joseph McCabe that is put out by the Freethough Library (I assume this is you guys). Are you going to be putting this on-line anytime soon?
Thanks for maintaining this library.
Internet Infidels' Response:
We do not have any plans to add "The Myth of the Resurrection and Other Essays" by Joseph McCabe to the Secular Web Library. The text is currently being published by Promoetheus and is copyrighted.
[This message was in response to "A Rebuttal to the 'Contract With the American Family'".]
I just experienced a few moments of sloppy reading. I read your page. The reading was sloppy because it followed the pattern of your writing. It is also evident that the sloppy writing followed the pattern of your logic.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Please, do us a favor and point out the specific inconsistencies you allude to. You do us injustice by denying us the benefit of your wisdom.
To whom it may concern,
I'm Dr. Kennedy's System Manager for Coral Ridge Ministries. I would like this e-mail message reach Alex Matulich.
The message is: "Thanks for the review, you treated Dr. Kennedy fairly, thanks for the "eye opener," it is nice to see the other side of the coin for a change."
Thanks for the information in your review.
[This message was in response to "New Testament Contradictions" by Paul Carlson.]
I read your page, and all I can say is I hope you find your peace. You obviously don't have it and probably don't even know what it is. When the pain and emptyness inside you is too much to bear, then you will humble yourself to God for his help. It will be then, if your heart is truly sincere, he will reveal Himself to you and you will find your peace in His Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus said, Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will open to you. Faith is the one greatest spiritual and physical truth. Nothing can be obtained, in this life as well as after, without faith, nothing. You must first believe in God in order to find Him.
Internet Infidels' Response:
I'm not the author of the article on "New Testament Contradictions" that you read, but I'd like to offer you the following thoughts:
1. Armchair psychoanalysis is not appreciated. You have never even met the author of the piece you read, but you assume he has pain and emptiness. Even if you are right (and I don't think that you are), there is no way you could possibly know that.
2. You did not even ATTEMPT to reconcile any of the purported contradictions in the New Testament. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to at least attempt to engage in rational discussion. Your preaching is not appreciated.
If you ever decide you would like to discuss the errancy of the Bible intelligently, you should take your concerns to the ERRANCY list. I'm sure the subscribers would be delighted to learn about your ideas.
[This message was in response to "God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire".]
Where did you find this?
Internet Infidels' Response:
To be honest, I don't remember anymore. It was probably mailed to us.
[This message was in response to "True Cool Religion".]
This is too cool. Sign me up, the check is in the mail. Also I want a credit card (a Cool Card) and a Cool Investments Newsletter for the Cool Mutual Fund would also be cool.
I don't know why somebody didn't think of this before but I guess God was too busy being cool, eh?
Cool is the Rule.
[This message was in response to "On the Issue of Why Bad Things Happen" by David McCalmont.]
i am not an atheist..but your points are excellent..i believe that our creator is selective and arbitrary in the granting of both fortune and misfortune..life is full of many mysteries..god and evil are just 2 ..
[This message was in response to "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine.]
Emmett F. Fields,
I want to express my appreciation for your having put the above subject monumental religious texts on-line. I have spent over thirty years conveying that information to everyone I could by speech, radio (for a short while), and by mail. I hope this avenue proves more effective (i.e., educates far more people per unit of resource expended per year). I consider those texts to be the greatest religous texts ever published, and am an Ingersoll-modified, Thomas Paine Deist. My only suggestion is to add the ability of readers who are sympathetic with Paine's views to get in contact with each other. Once again, thanks for having already done a truly great service to man and any real god that exists.
[This message was in response to "The Trilemma -- Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?" by Jim Perry.]
I have just finished reading "The Trilemma" and found it very intersting.You points are intellectually and rhetorically sound. As you know, however, Christian faith is so much more than that. It is easy to focus on the form of what Jesus said without concidering the substance. While the options of Lord, Lunatic or Liar may present a false "trichotomy" (I think I made up that word), the bottom line of Christianity is that each person must must decide for himself who Jesus was. Do not be misled by the feeble attempts of humans to communicate God to others only God can show Himself to you. Unfortunately, tht often happens in spite of the volumes of believers who "talk the talk" but have dificulty "walking the walk." Keep up the interesting work. Josh McDowell began his journey doing the exact same thing!!
Internet Infidels' Response #1: Thank you for your comments (I'm the author of the "trilemma" section of _The Jury is In_; Jeffery Jay Lowder, the main force behind that project, forwarded your message to me). I hope it is apparent that the intent of that article, as well (as I understand it) as the rest of the _Jury_ project, is to criticize the quality of the specific arguments McDowell presents in _ETDAV_, rather than criticizing Christianity per se (although some of the contributing authors are in fact critics of Christianity, and more are nonbelievers, there is considerable criticism of McDowell's apologetics even among Christians). Perhaps this should somehow be made clearer; _Jury_ just launches straight into rebutting _ETDAV_ without any statement of purpose etc. (Consider that a suggestion, Jeff; while we're on the topic, the history section of the "revisions" page misidentifies my update of ch. 7 [trilemma] as ch. 5 [a man of history]).
Jim Perry
Internet Infidels' Response #2: I'm not Jim Perry, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. :)
I wanted to thank you for your polite tone. As our Feedback pages make obvious, we receive quite a bit of hate mail from Christians. We genuinely appreciate courteous messages like yours.
Thank you for your interest in our work. It is gratifying to know that it is being read by McDowell supporters.
Best wishes,
[This message was in response to "Immortality: Defining the Problem" by Keith Augustine.]
i am very impressed by your paper on immoratality on your webpage. the closing quotation particularly impressed me.
keep up the good work!
Dear Joeseph McCabe
Recently I read a pasage from some of your writings. You mistakingly placed limobos outside of hell, which Dante has in the first circle.
You also place Cleopatra, Francesca, Helen Dido and other pretty women These women are actually located in the second circlewhere spin the souls of the CARNAL.
Thought I would let you know.
Internet Infidels' Response:
I'm afraid Joseph McCabe is dead, and has been for some time. I'm not sure which circle of hell he wound up in.
Sincerely,
[This message was in response to "Is the Bible the Word of God?" by Emmett F. Fields.]
Hello, I am Christian. I am sure many write you with flaming words or other write you in hopes of saving your soul. Well, I need not to inspire you or convince you that you are wrong. I suppose I am writing you to simply understand what a world must feel like through your perspective. I was not raise in any religion but later chose what I found in my heart to be true. My ex-girlfriend held similiar views as yours and she was a mess. Of course, not to say that you are. I would like to know if you are a exception. Is you life fruitful? Do you have the joys of the Spirit that the Bible so clearly writes about? I am sure that if you respond to this, you will say 'yes', for no rational human would ever admit that there life sucks, at least I wouldn't. But there are times when my life does suck. Matter of fact, school is rough and things kind of stink. But I guess it is the love that God gives me that causes me to go on. As you may believe, you might think it is a manifestation of my mind, maybe? I have tried to live self-centered and to put my faith in myself, but something never seem to click. All I know is that I am different because of Christ. How can I deny what is truth?
Internet Infidels' Response:
Speaking as a life-long atheist I can say my life has been fruitful. The joys of my life are many and simple, from reading to visiting the zoo with my children to volunteering time teaching to watching The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly for the umpteenth time. And there are times when I screw up or someone else screws up or the world screws up and I suffer. Still, life is too short and precious to waste on counting the bad times and not living the good.
[This message was in response to "Life In Our Anti-Christian America" by Rob Berry.]
Hi
I've been enjoying your web pages, especially liked the satire about the "anti-Christian" bias in this country.
I teach in a publish school which has blocked out all "alt" newsgroups. I wish I could get in on some of the discussions there.
Read an article in "George" about Pat Buchanan ---very scary man! Does anyone know of any anti-Buchanan movements?
Would appreciate e-mail on freethought topics.
Keep up the good work.
Hello,
I am an active member of the Church of Satan. I've recently read your reason that atheists are not Satanists and believe that you have made an error. Satanists do NOT believe in God or Satan. We worship ourselves. Hence the symbol of Satan: pride, individuality, rebellion. We go a step further than atheism- instead of having no God, we seek only to satisfy or "worship" ourselves. Indeed there may be some organizations that actually believe in and worship Satan and other dark powers but such is not the standpoint of the Church of Satan. The Church of Satan does not seek to define Satanism for everyone but it was the first legal, organized religion centered around the symbol of Satan. All others are imitations or weaker offshoots.
I do not necessarily write on the behalf of the church. I simply saw some misinfo and sought to inform you of the truth. Could you please modify your statements regarding Atheism and Satanism to reflect this knowledge. Thank You.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Now I've heard of everything. First there were people who claimed to be Christians but didn't believe in Jesus. Now there are people who don't believe in Satan yet claim to be Satanists! And I bet they call themselves "liberal Satanists," too!
Hi --
A friend sent me this message and I thought you might have an answer.
Thanks!
Have you heard of this group? Should we check it out?
Thought I'd pass it along... :-)> ... joined an organization called Americans United for Separation
> of Church and State (Americans United for short) and am getting a
> bit scared at what I'm reading in their literature. These
> religious fanatics have just about taken over California... North
> Carolina can't be far behind.> If you're interested in knowing what's going on in the political
> scene, their address is:> Americans United
> 1816 Jefferson Place N.W.
> Washington, DC 20036
Internet Infidels' Response:
Yes, they are an excellent defender of separation of church and state. If that interets you, I'd recommend joining them.
I have just read read your WWW page (ok, a small portion of it) and I must say I am impressed. As much of a 20th century scientist that I am, I still seem to prefer having a hardcover in my hands. I was wondering if any of you infidels (*grin*) might have a suggested reading list of books still in print? I have a well stocked Borders book store nearby where I can also order most any book - but I am looking for a few good suggestions.
I am especially interested in skeptical thought on Chrisitianity and Biblical inerrancy but am also interested in the subjects of Islam, New Age doo-doo, Wicca, and the like.
By the way, I am a somewhat religous Jew. Obviously, since I am interested in this sort of thing, I am NOT a fundamentalist, nor do I believe that the Bible is without error (its full of 'em). I was just wondering if any of the other Internet Infidels know of semi-skeptics like myself.
Keep up the good work.
Internet Infidels' Response #1:
I recommend a trip to Prometheus Books . There you'll find a number of works which address Biblical inerrancy, New Age religion, Islam, and other topics which skeptics (and semi-skeptics) address.
Internet Infidels' Response #2:
Someone asked the same question last month. Please check the January 1996 Feedback for the secular books I recommend.
Hello whoever you are!
Does this address refer to an individual or an organization?
Internet Infidels' Response:
We are an organization:
http://www.infidels.org/infidel/faq.html#who
atheist
Internet Infidels' Response:
Kinda cryptic, hunh?
[This message was in response to "Jesus Was a Hypocrite" by Donald Morgan .]
> If you read the text you speak of that says that Jesus couldn't
> do the mircales. The reason he 'couldn't do the mircales is because
> he knew that they had a lack of faith.
Internet Infidels' Response:
That is true, But what is the point? If Jesus is going to tell us that we can move mountains if we have but the faith of a mustard seed, then does this mean that if those around us don't have faith we can't move mountains? If so, why bother to tell us about moving mountains in the first place (since there are always people around who lack faith)? And if we can actually move mountains when those around have faith, why has no one done so?
It should be quite obvious that what Jesus said about what one might be able to accomplish with faith was hyperbole--it just isn't true. He couldn't even make it come true in his own life. This is one of the things that makes him a hypocrite (if the Bible is to be believed).
> It is possable that God stopped doing so many mircales
> because people tend to forget the purpose of them.
Well, of course just about anything is possible. But coming up with some possible explantaion or scenario doesn't get Jesus or God off the hook. If this same tecnique is used, anything at all can be explained, including all the problems in the Book of Mormon and in the Mormon belief system.
>They aren't just to fix broken people and make things happen,
>
they are for teaching and rewarding those who have faith.
This is nothing more than an unsupported assertion which you believe to be true. I don't. The fact that the Bible says something or that you learned something in church or Bible study doesn't necessarily guarantee its truth.
> If you would like I could get in touch with some people who
> can debate (not bash) your topic with a cool head and who are
> willing to explain everything they they understand so that
> maybe everyone involved can be enlightened.
I am a former Christian who is well trained in Christian apologetics. There is likely nothing that any of these people could say that I have not heard before or, perhaps, have not said myself.
In any case, this kind of thing already goes on on the debate e-mail list. If you or they are interested in subscribing, send the following message:
subscribe debate Yourfirstname Yourlastname
to:
listproc@infidels.org
Regards,
[This message was in response to "Jesus Was a Hypocrite" by Donald Morgan .]
I think it is sad that you don't recognize the true nature of Jesus. He did so much for you, out of love, even though you did nothing for Him. His desire is not to lead anyone astray or deceive anyone, but to fill you up with His love and acceptance. I am not a pastor or anything and I have no desire to debate philosophy with you. All I know is that without knowing the pure love He has for me, I would not be complete. Perhaps if you are looking for Him to be someone terrible, you could make Him seem that way, but if you knew Him, you would love Him. He certainly loves you and will continue to even though you deliberately push Him away.
Internet Infidels' Response #1: What you mean here, of course, is that you think that it is sad that I don't share your point of view about the true nature of Jesus (if it could, in fact, be determined). As far as I am concerned, of course, it is sad that you don't share my point of view with regard to the true nature of Jesus.
This is an honest difference of opinion. One which could, I believe, be resolved if you knew more about the results of scholarly study into the life of Jesus, who he was, what he really did and did not do, etc. You are not going to learn this side of the story in Church or Bible study.
[Also,] Unless you are clairvoyant, you do not really know either what Jesus did for us or what I have done "for him." You are simply making an unfounded assertion with no supporting evidence or argument. You don't even know me, my background, whether I am or ever was a Christian, etc., etc. It is presumptuous, to say the least, for you to make assumptions about me.
If you are not willing to debate the issues, then you really shouldn't have written this e-mail message. If you are going to send a message, you should be willing to listen to what the other person has to say. If you are going to make the kinds of assertions that you have made in your e-mail, then you should be willing to offer evidence and/or supporting argument for your viewpoint.
[As for being incomplete without the love of Jesus,] You do not *know* this at all if by 'know' you mean the dictionary definition of the word. You believe this, and that is all. There is a difference between 'know' and 'believe' in my book.
I'm not looking for him to be anything. I have no preconception. If you are referring to my "Jesus Was a Hypocrite" article, I am merely making the point that, if the biblical account of Jesus is taken to be accurate, the Bible shows him to have been hypocritical in his behavior.
I did "know" him. I was myself a Christian who, at one point, sounded just about like you do now. One thing that I did in my search for reality was to examine the foundations of the Christian faith. I found them shaky. I also looked at what is really known about the historical Jesus; it was an eye-opener.
Regards,
Internet Infidels' Response #2: I think it is sad you have chosen to dedicate your earthly existence to a man who has been dead now for almost 2,000 years. If you choose to believe anyway on faith, that is your perogative.
Most of the Internet Infidels thought they knew Jesus' "pure love" at one time, but are now happier than they ever were as Christians. If you were to accept our position, you'd know exactly what I am talking about.
[This message was in response to "New Testament Contradictions" by Paul Carlson.]
Hello from Greece! From the island of Crete! Halleluja! Praise The Lord. Praise his wonderful name. I am sending you this email to tell you that you have done a great work. I am sorry that I couldn`t read all this, but as I saw this is a great work. I hope (and I pray) that Jesus Christ our Lord will bless you and help you continue working for his.
Halleluja! Praise our Lord Jesus Christ!
Internet Infidels' Response:
You obviously did not read very much of the text or you wouldn't be blessing it, that's for sure.
[This message was in response to "The Dark Bible."]
Could you tell me why the biblical flood is not included with the other atrocities?
[This message was in response to " The Dark Bible."]
Why wasn't the story of Lot and his daughters included in the examples of filth?
[This message was in response to "Origin of Free Masonry" by Thomas Paine.]
Thank you for maintaining this information. I have been searching for more information on Free Masons for a while. I found the article fascinating, but I have a few questions. I have read in Christian literature that the Knights Templar during the crusades brought back to France their belief in Catharcism from their travels. Catharcism is a religion in which a good and evil force are believed to hold equal status. I read that they subscribed to the dark force and upon return to France melded these beliefs into the Free Mason belief system. If you have any knowledge of these occurances or can direct me to someone who does I would be very greatful. I am serching for the truth and with Free Masons that can be hampered greatly. Also, I am a member of the Knights of Colombus which is a Catholic service organization and I would be grateful for any information pertaining to our history. I have an open mind and although, as a Christian, I find great distaste towards the worship of the sun (I know, it could be argued that we also worship the sun...), I do not believe that anyone should be persecuted for their beliefs. Again, I have an open mind, please send me any pointers on where I can find more information about the Masons or even Christianity.
Thanks for keeping these materials available.
[This message was in response to "The Dark Bible ."]
I wuold truely like to know why it is so important to some individuals to rip apart the Christian religions. I completely and utterly support your web page and quite honestly would fight for it against other Christians or anyone else who wanted to eliminate it. I am just curious of the animosity and beligerance expressed towards religion. I feel that it can be traced to the evils commited by organized religions over the centuries, however any man who has his own mind(and that might be the problem with organize religion eh?) knows that Christ said NOT to persecute those who have different beliefs. If this is the cause of anger for so many atheists I would just like to point out that is the teachings of Christ were really practiced instead of manipulated by many religions we would live in a society of peace and harmony. The teachings of many others religions would also provide this atmopshere. Buddhism, Confucianism, Masonry, etc.. all provide the basic framework from which we can ALL live in harmony. They're not that different from each other. Have you ever found this interesting? Christians who murder (I use that word on purpose) other people because of their beliefs are NOT Christians. I belive that the fundamental moral structure provided by religion, in most cases whatever religion, are extremely important for society to function. Do you not agree?
Internet Infidels' Response:
Yes and no. I do believe people need to live the ethical life. However, I do not believe any particular religion is needed to provide this. It would indeed be nice for people to be tolerant, but most are not, and I don't expect them to become tolerant anytime soon. The man Jesus found in the New Testament did have some good morals, yet his teachings have been mixed in with messages of resentment and superstition in a book based on intolerance for other ways of life. Is it possible to learn morals from a book that teaches a person to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and at the same time declare open season on homosexuals and idolaters? Food for thought.
[This message was in response to "New Testament Contradictions" by Paul Carlson.]
What about me? Are you trying to say life is meaningless? No God? Make as much monry then die? What? Do we just die? If so then you are forever dead. There is only one sin that our Lord Jesus can't do anything about when your before the throne of God. Denying the Holy Spirit. Denying Him!!! So now, I just want to say before you're before the throne,"I told you so!" I'll pray for you all that your eyes may be opened.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Did you even read the article you are responding to? The article was entitled "New Testament Contradictions" and it attempted to refute Biblical inerrancy. If you really want to "open our eyes," why don't you start by responding to some of Paul Carlson's specific points? That would be much more interesting than threatening us with the "throne of Jesus," since we don't even believe in an afterlife.
Good day. I discovered freethought while in undergraduate school. Since that time, I have read, voraciously, any book I could find on the subject. I am in agreement with the premises of freethought, and would like more information on how I can contact others who share this advanced mode of human thought.
Internet Infidels' Response:
There are a number of groups which discuss religion, philosophy, and other topics in the area of freethought. You might explore
http://www.infidels.org/electronic/email/
for more help. Enjoy!
[This message was in response to "Historicity of Jesus FAQ" by Scott Oser.]
As a geologist, I often find myself at odds with those who preach the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. I am, after all, spewing heresy whenever I talk about the 4.5-billion year history of the Earth. As for the existence of a supreme being, only faith can answer that question. I do think it is arrogant to believe that this Deity created us in his/her own image. And to believe that this Deity also gave us his/her son to murder as forgiveness of our sins is also arrogant (we're that important?!). Trying to comprehend the creation of the universe as just happening is difficult for one so limited in the space-time continuum. Perhaps Stephen Hawking and his band of physicists will find the answer.
I do however, consider myself a Christian. The beliefs of Christianity seem to provide a good ethical basis for living one's life, regardless of how un-Darwin the theme. As a scientist, I am always testing hypotheses. It seems that you are as well.
The accounts of the life of Jesus Christ are plagued with inconsistancies, contradictions, and paradoxes. Regardless, for one person to be so well documented for his time (albeit mostly by his followers), considering his social and economic status, is unusual. The belief that the Josephus's Testimonium Flavianum was doctored by Christian copyists seems puzzling. If the Christian copyists did doctor Josephus's text, why just add a few words? Why not add paragraphs of pro-Jesus material? Perhaps it wasn't altered. But it is senseless to argue what is not provable.
I applaud your efforts to take a hard look at the "truths" of religion and hope that you continue to provide this web-site as a system of checks and balances. However, I still consider myself a believer in Jesus Christ. My view of him is more scientific, with information gathered from alternative sources. My interpretation of both the canonical and non-canonical gospels are indeed quite liberal.In the end, it comes down to faith. Although your arguments are persuasive, they do not destroy the foundation of my faith. I do find myself, however, modifying my beliefs much as one modifies a hypothesis when the data doesn't fully support it but doesn't contradict it either.
I do have one question. Why do you not address other religions, such as Islam, or Buddhism? Maybe you have, but I haven't stumbled across the sites.
Internet Infidels' Response:
To answer this last question, give us time, give us time.
[This message was in response to "The Scientific Case for Extinction of the Personality at Death" by Keith Augustine.]
What you have forgotten to acknowledge is the difference between having a personality and manifesting that personality. During the night, a person sleeps, showing the same outward signs as someone who is braindead or in a coma. But you cannot argue that the sleeping person ceases to have a personality! The workings of the inner mind continue whether we acknowledge them or not. It is preposterous to try to prove that the soul/personality dies at the moment of bodily death.
Author's Response:
>What you have forgotten to acknowledge is the difference
>between having a personality and manifesting that
>personality.
No, I did not forget to make this acknowledgement. This is the assumption which forms the basis of the instrument theory, for which I provided several examples showing that this stance is highly implausible and that the analogies proposed to illustrate it failed.
For example, in The Scientific Case for Extinction of the Personality at Death :
"Several survival proponents have argued that the facts of neuroscience are consistent with survival of bodily death because the body is an instrument of the soul. The illustrations of the 'instrument theory' reveal a fatal flaw:
If the human body corresponds to a colored glass... then the living personality corresponds to the colored light that is the result of the glass... Now while light in general will continue to exist without the colored glass... the specific red or blue or yellow rays that the glass produces... will certainly not persist if the glass [is] destroyed (Lamont 104)."
So I showed that a common analogy used to illustrate the instrument theory fails, and I gave a specific example of the implausibility of the instrument theory given the facts of Alzheimer's disease, as provided by Dr. Paul Edwards:
At about the time when she could no longer recognize her daughter, she beat up [a] paralyzed lady on two or three occasions... [The instrument theory] implies that throughout her affliction with Alzheimer's Mrs. D.'s mind was intact. She recognized her daughter but had lost her ability to express this recognition. She had no wish to beat up an inoffensive paralyzed old woman. On the contrary, 'inside' she was the same considerate person as before the onset of the illness. It is simply that her brain disease prevented her from acting in accordance with her true emotions... these are the implications of the theory that the mind survives the death of the brain and that the brain is only an instrument for communication. Surely these consequences are absurd (Edwards 299-300).
I used more examples in the Scientific Case Against Immortality:
"Survival proponents who think that the brain is an instrument of the soul use arguments like the following in an attempt to reconcile physiology and the soul:
A colored glass... [has] only a transmissive function in respect to the light that shines through [it], since [it does not itself] create the rays. The same may be said of an organ, which transforms already existing air into music. In a similar fashion the human body may act as a transmission apparatus for the supernatural soul (Lamont 98)."
"Corliss Lamont makes it apparent that this rejoinder has no force:
A severe injury to the head, for instance, may change an ordinarily cheerful man into a sullen and morose one subject to sudden fits of homicidal mania. If the brain and body are simply the instruments of the soul, we have to say in such a case that this personality is really still brimming over with joy and benevolence, but that unfortunately these sentiments can only express themselves in dark glances, in peevish complaints and in violent attacks (Lamont 100)."
"Lamont continues:
Suppose... [he] becomes definitely insane... [and] is convinced he is Napoleon... Are we to say that his real personality is still normal, that his soul is still thinking clearly and healthily, and that as soon as he gets rid of his body by dying he will come to his senses? (100)."
> During the night, a person sleeps, showing
> the same outward signs as someone who is braindead or in
> a coma. But you cannot argue that the sleeping person
> ceases to have a personality!
I did not argue that, so it is irrelevant.
>The workings of the inner mind continue whether we
>acknowledge them or not. It is preposterous to try
>to prove that the soul/personality dies at the
>moment of bodily death.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I believe that my conclusion is warranted based upon the existing evidence. To that I can only add that in the case of Alzheimer's disease, for example, most neuroscientists and family members would agree that an elderly mother or father has lost their personality rather than believing that the personality is still "in there" completely intact yet simply unable to manifest itself to the outside world.
[This message was in response to "Bible Vulgarities" by Donald Morgan .]
where is the proof that god is real????????
I must congratulate you all for a fantastic page !
Well done and a big thankyou !
Basically I have been surfing about trying to gather information that can help me with a very definite problem that is coming to a head in my family. My wife became a born-again person after we married, and of course it drove me crazy, but my main concern is for my children, how do I explain to them their mother is loony without showing dissrespect?
Thanks
Here in the south we continue to take one step forward and many steps back. The sodomy law over a century old is still on the books making most all judges and lawyers guilty of most of the stuff covered in that law. Now Georgia legislature bans same sex unions and knocks out common law as well. Next we'll all be limited to the missionary position.
Thank you.
I've been looking for something to do on the net to stretch my consciosness.
I was just at a bookstore today, in the religious section and couldn't find anything on atheism.
2 nice gentlemen were looking like they wanted to help me with big smiles who were also browsing this section.
Oh well...
When one of them asked what I was looking for I said a book on atheism.
To say the least their expressions changed and they left me alone.
Couldn't find a book but thank you for being here on the net.
I'll be e-mailing you again soon.
I'll sign up for the Magazine later once I get back from Philly.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Finding books on atheism, freethought, humanism, etc. by *secular* authors can be quite a challenge. I recommend you get on Prometheus Books' and H.H. Waldo's mailing lists. Check the "Atheist Media" FAQ at http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/media.html for more information.
I am mainly curious to know what kind of response you get to writing this type of material. I am a Christian who allows others to have opinions of their own, but I know many who would become angered for something as simple as this. May I also ask you what first gave you the idea that the creator is inside of us. I am not sure I exactly follow what you are saying. I believe in Jesus Christ because of the way I felt inside (not that feelings cannot be misleading) when I accepted Him into my heart and because the fascinations of nature that I don't believe could be coincidence. How could a creator on the inside have created all that is around us? I also notice your reference to scripture at the end of the story about being visited by church people. Do you believe in the Bible or do you just take pieces out of it to prove points. Please do not consider this an attack on your beliefs. I am only curious to know about the ideas you presented.
[This message was sent in response to "Review of 'Answers...'" by Gordon Stein .]
Dr Stein,
I read your writing on McDowell's book "Answers". I have read "Answers". I was wondering if you would be willing to supply me (viz e-mail) with more examples on all areas you touched. I would also request answers to these questions so that I can form a more intelligent and researched opinion of your writing:
Where did you get you information?
How do you know it to be true?
What are your feelings about God and religion?
I request sources, to see what you base arguments from, and proof of truth for obvious reasons. I would also appreciate knowing where you stand in religious beleifs to see why you feel this way about McDowell.
Thank you in advance
Internet Infidels' Response:
Dr. Stein unfortunately does not have an email account, but he did give us his permission to post his articles on McDowell. If you'd like to read something that was/is being written exclusively for on-line publication, check out The Jury Is In: The Ruling on McDowell's "Evidence" at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/.
[This message was in response to "My Divinity" by Rob Berry.]
I read your article about you being God!!! Please!! I think you need to do some more reading about gematria!! You obviously have no clue!!!
Internet Infidels' Response:
Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast you out or smite you or something.
Sincerely,
[This message was in response to "The Columbia Encyclopedia's Crimes Against the Truth" by Joseph McCabe.]
Why not consider the Great Famine of 1932-33 in your essay? An example of an artificially induced famine which resulted in what was probably the greatest loss of life in a European nation (Ukraine) in the 20th century. This was a Soviet crime against humanity, one whose perpetrators were never really brought to justice, even though some of them escaped the Soviet Union to live in North America, Israel and western Europe, unpunished for their particpation in genocide and mass murder.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Though Mr. McCabe lived through the period of the Great Famine, he died over forty years ago.
[This message was in response to "The Jury Is In: The Ruling on Josh McDowell's 'Evidence'" edited by Jeffery Jay Lowder.]
Dear I.Infidels, though I am an accursed Christian fundamentalist (not ashamed to say) I must admit what you had to say was quite stimulating. Though I might agree that some individuals (who call themselves christians) give people a very hard time, don't you think you're stereo-typing all of us into one lump? I can say that to some extent I had some of the experiences that some of the writers of "Walk Away" had, I can't rely on what I experienced as being from God rather I should place whatever blame there is on people.
Apparently you have found imperfect people who are following a perfect God, maybe you should stop looking at people and start understanding who God might be. Unfortuneately you have seen what some imperfect christians had done and will now judge Christ by them. I would agree that if Christ were here today he probably would agree with some of YOUR views. However, he would also remind you that in John chapter 21 that you should never compare yourself with other people but him only.
In any case I'll keep reading your Web pages and might actually learn some more stuff.
Internet Infidels' Response:
I appreciate the sincerity of your message. Believe it or not, the primary purpose of Jury is to criticize McDowell's " Evidence That Demands a Verdict", not to refute Christianity. Our complaint with McDowell is not with "imperfect people," but with the poor arguments in ETDAV.
Thanks again for your message. Take care!
Cute ... very cute.
To bad God didn't send his Son in this day and time. Just think of how much fun you'd have had crucifying him on the cross?
Internet Infidels' Response:
Probably not as much fun as Christians have been torturing His Word. Take a look around -- you'll not find infidels undermining the Christian religion.
That is some very funny stuff. Some of them might have been hastly generalizations, but I think everyone can relate if they try hard enough and really look at each situation from an unbiased point of view. It must of taken you a long time to compile this list. Keep it up!! This stuff makes me laugh my ass off!!!
[This message was in response to "Did Jesus Christ Really Live?" by Marshall Gauvin.]
Without a doubt in my mind of heart I say yes He did live but more importantly I say He still lives and He will always live. I read your writing but there is some points that you failed to explore. If He never lived how then could His impact still be felt around the world? Men and Women have died rather than deny Him. Would you die for a made up character? People know Him beyond all doubt because they regularly spend time in His Presence. He speaks to the hearts of His children. I know He lived and continues to live because I know Him on a one on one basis. If He were not real then so many people would not be following Him. The Bible is no ordinary book it is the Word of God. I challenge you to pray to god and ask Him to help you know for sure that He is. Have you read His Word and asked Him to help you understand it? I am not trying to be preachy. It is just that my life is so much better since I found a relationship with Christ that I earnestly want the whole world to know Him. I pray you will come to know Him too!
Internet Infidels' Response:
>
I challenge you to pray to god and ask Him to help you know for sure
>
that He is.
I'm afraid your challenge came too late, several decades too late in fact. Gauvin has been dead for some time now. To the best of my knowledge, he did not go to hell for being an atheist.
Sincerely,
The commentary suggests that "reproducible electronic media defeats censorship." Then it says "HTML reproduction rights reserved".
My impression is you are saying, "it's a good idea to reproduce every one else's electronic media, but don't touch ours."
In any case, I would like permission to distribute disks containing Paine's _Age of Reason_.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Read our Secular Web Copyright page for details on distribution.
[This message was in response to "The American Humanist Association" page.]
Do you folks still use the "H" man logo?
[This message was in response to "The Mistakes of Jesus" by William Floyd.]
Its incredible.You know noyhing about Jesus at all.Yet you will critisize him.Use your free thought to examine yourself,then maybe,you will see who Jesus is.Stick to commenting on yourself,since you have made such a greater impact on humanity.At the end of your life I think you might see things diffrently you who are educated beyond your intelligence.
Internet Infidels' Response:
1. William Floyd has been dead for several decades. He did not "see things differently" at the end of his life, and as far as I know, he didn't go to hell for writing "Mistakes of Jesus".
2. You complain that William Floyd criticizes Jesus even though he knows nothing about him. Yet you, who nothing about William Floyd (as shown by the fact that you thought he was still alive), nonetheless feel free to criticize William Floyd. You can't have it both ways. Since you feel you have done nothing wrong by criticizing Floyd, I conclude that Floyd has done nothing wrong by criticizing Jesus.
3. There are a lot of brands of decaf that taste just as good as the regular brands.
Sincerely,
[This message was in response to "The Problem of Jesus' Arrest and Trial" by James Still.]
Dear Infidels,
Although I found Mr. Still's article interesting, I personally disagree with such a simplistic view of the variety of accounts dealing with Jesus' arrest and trial. One book that I have found useful in my studies, and which deals directly with the accounts of the trial, but from a different angle, is Elaine Pagel's "History of Satan." The focus, of course, is the evolution of Satan in his variety of roles, but it does cover the trial accounts and the charcter of Pontius Pilate in great detail. Try it out, I think you'll find it interesting.
Internet Infidels' Response:
As a side-note you might find it interesting that in at least one Christian denomination, the Coptic Church specifically, Pontius Pilate is regarded as a saint. The Coptics believed that Pilate did everything he could to save Jesus, and because of his acts he is considered a "man of God." The Coptics even have a sort of "Saint Pilate's Day" which they celebrate annually. Interesting to find Christians of all stripes, eh?
[This message was in response to "The Gish-Zindler Debate ".]
Hi Folks,
Enjoyed reading the Radio talk between Duane Gish and Frank Zindler. I have to cast my vote for Dr. Gish as the winner though; not only in content, but in courtesy as well.
[This message was in response to "On the Issue of Why Bad Things Happen" by David B. McCalmont.]
We should stop hammering away at the straw-man theistic views of good an evil. It's hard to find a "real" Christian that believes in the traditional justifications of evil in the world. They're all as confused as we are.
Humanistic treatments of this question seem to sail above the question at 50,000 feet. It's not enough to demolish the kind old man in the sky. We must come up with a solid and convincing basis for moral behaviour that doesn't bring supernatural considerations into the picture at all. This is urgently needed since there seems to be no shortage of evil in the world.
> Now I wonder what educational organization tamu.edu is a part of.
Internet Infidels' Response:
That's a great question. "tamu.edu" refers to Texas A&M University. Our computer is privately owned by Brett Lemoine, one of the founders of the Internet Infidels. It is also the official computer of the Texas A&M Atheist & Agnostic Student Group , which is why it has access to Texas A&M's internet connection.
>
I get concerned about organizations that wish to destroy
> others in the name of freedom.
BTW, the Internet Infidels have no wish to "destroy others in the name of freedom." We simply wish to exercise our right to express our opinion; we have no desire to take this right away from those who disagree with us.
> Sounds as if you people have a problem with the setup of your
> narrow minded religion of superstition. How much of your religious
> practices are supported by the taxpayers money?
Actually, there is nothing religious about us. We are completely secular and nontheistic. We are opposed to superstition, though.
[This message was in response to "Absurdities of the Bible" by Clarence Darrow.]
Reason and knowledge need not be abandoned to "save your soul," as you rhetorically ask. It sounds as though you have read much or all of the Bible: recall the scholarly Bereans in the New Testament of the Bible who studied to see if what was being spoken to them was correct and accurate. I am sorry that you reject the message and hope that you have read on the basis of human reasoning.
I am sure you are an intelligent person and I believe that if you studied these matters objectively you would answer many of your own criticisms of these "absurdities."
I won't discuss all of the subjects as I believe you could further study them if you were interested (and you are apparently not), however let me just address your last "absurdity" (a star over the nativity scene).
Read this section carefully again and note the time frame: the "wise men from the east" visited a two year old toddler, not an infant in a manger. These "wise men" were likely astonomers who watched the sky for signs - the Bible does mention that the galaxy is ordered in patterns that can be observed for seasons and events. I don't read that a star "hung over some manger" but instead guided these men as to the event occurring. If they were familiar with Old Testament writings they would know approximately where to look for the Child. It may have taken them two years to travel there and find Him.
Anyway, I hope you study with an open mind the areas that you criticize and maybe some of these will not seem so absurd. I can only pray that you do not reject God as we are all without hope without Him, no matter what my church, community or social standing is. Feel free to write me if you want when I get my address in a few weeks.
I found your page a couple of months ago, and I'm finding that I return to it more and more frequently as time goes by. I find it encouraging to see that the forces of reason have a long history, in spite of the attempts of small-minded superstitious people to suppress discussion of ideas that alarm them. I've found that through reading historical documents, I have a better grounding to defend my lack of belief in the numinous....thanks for all your efforts. It's good to know that nonbelief isn't aberrant, but rather, the cornerstone of western thought.
[This message was in response to "The Mistakes of Jesus" by William Floyd .]
I have been reading your information with great interest. It is shocking due to the simplicity of the contradictions that so obviously remove the halo of sacrosanct perfection that surrounds the Bible.
I noticed Mr. Dvorak, a computer magazine journalist, denigrates the Web in comparison to the Bible. However, the Web (Secular, that is) certainly denigrates the Bible for its undeserved pedestal.
As you may imagine, the overwhelming power of reason is finally beginning to supplant childhood propaganda. However, where I feel that the Bible is beneficial, I remain silent. That may change, however. The devastating effect these words would have on people would nearly be ineffable were they forced to read and not turn away in horror and disillusionment, or perhaps squint in the light of understanding.
Maybe my classmate Jeffery Jay Lowder was right after all.
Internet Infidels' Response:
It's good to hear from you. Believe it or not, I requested a copy of your honors thesis from the director of the Honors program right before graduation. It's on my to-read list.
Speaking of Biblical errancy, one book I've really been impressed with is _Beyond Fundamentalism_ by James Barr. Also, don't overlook _The Skeptical Review_ by ex-minister-turned-atheist Farrell Till. (The magazine is available on-line at http://www.infidels.org/library/library/magazines/tsr/, Till can be reached at jftill@midwest.net.)
Check out my honors thesis on the historicity of Jesus' resurrection at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/thesis/. I'd be *very* interested to get *your* feedback.
Hope this helps. Take care!
Best wishes,
i have recently discovered your web site and am tremendously impressed by it i only wish to reitterate what many others have said you are doing an excellent job it's a good thing this web site exists and cannot be banned and the fundamentalists who have written in are quite ignorant (as well as being bad spellers) but a few still do make some good comments i think the point they miss is that you will not be quickly swayed by their arguments or by ignorant banter like:
jesus loves you
won't
you just admit it
you're going to hell if you don't
or one of the many rephrasings of Pascal's wager
i must admit it is not surprising to find out just how ignorant christians are i too was a christian until just recently and had not critically examined any of the evidence but blindly accepted it by faith because of my parents, pastors, teachers, and others
be encouraged that you are having an impact though i only hope more people come to learn the real truth about jesus of nazareth from your web site
meanwhile i will offer you some interesting info of my own
read the book BIBLICAL GAMES by Steven J. Brams. Brams is a game theorist who analyzes the old testament including yahweh's interactions with the people of the bible. It is an excellent, informative, and entertaining book especially the last concluding chapter.
Also, will someone please do a critique of Bob Enyart and his television show or at least call him and set him straight
Next, here is an original piece i wrote which i hope you enjoy you may reproduce and post it on the internet however you like:
DON'T become a christian because:
- someone threatens, intimidates, or pressures you
- someone attacks your own past i.e. saying that you need christ in your life
- you can't come up with opposing evidence by yourself
- everyone else around you is a christian or because there are so many christians in the world today
- someone draws your pity or arouses sympathy from you
- someone who is smarter than you or that you trust becomes a christian ex. parents, teachers, pastors, etc.
or because "the bible says so"- someone offers you a reward for becoming one
(earthly or otherwise)- someone shifts the burden of proof onto you
i.e. you must DISPROVE christianity- someone uses a circular argument
How do we know that the Gospel story is true? Because it confirms the prophecies of the Old Testament. But how do we know that the Old Testament prophecies are true? Because they are confirmed by the Gospel story. Evidence, so called, is bounced back and forth between the testaments like a tennis ball; and no other eveidence is given us. The two testaments form a double mirror, each reflecting the other but neither the world outside.
- Northrup Frye (from _The Great Code: The Bible and Literature_)
If you do decide to become a christian, do so only because you have weighed all the evidences for and against appropriately and exhaustively.
"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."
- Oscar Wilde
all of the above reasons i have listed each fall into a different category of logical fallacy (but frighteningly enough, all have been used as tactics to "win people to christ")
hence the reason to attack christianity is not because we hate christians but because we love the truth and desire all men to know it
(i have been quite shocked by how my conversion away from christianity greatly parallels what paul says about the conversion to christianity)
finally, how can i get on your mailing list i would really like to chat with some of the members of Internet Infidels
oh, also, would someone do an analysis of philosophical taoism although i do not consider myself a taoist i agree with much of laotse and chuangtse's ideas in essence, you could say that i might be an agnostic who leans towards theism but not traditional theism probably some mix of pantheism and taoism
I especially thank you for your critiques of josh mcdowell and his writings. I thought no one would speak out and was afraid he would get away scot free
Please feel free to respond to anything I have written here but please be good enough to send me a personal response. You are welcome to my material and thank you for any help you can give me.
P.S. Be careful in your responses to christians not to resort to bickering or petty name calling. we must above all prove that morality and deceny are possible without (and often in spite of) Christianity. (sounds surprisingly like something paul once said)
Internet Infidels' Response:
Messages like this illustrate why we are writing "The Jury Is In: The Ruling on McDowell's `Evidence'". McDowell's works, especially "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" are very widely read and deserve a thorough, critical examination. Our hope is that " Jury" will provide such an examination.
If Christianity is a bunch of crap. If religious people are just stupid lemmings. If there is no God, or even any gods. If man must make his own destiny. If religion is a crutch for the weak...
Why bother with this? Why not let us stupid people go on with our ingnorance, feeling like the world is under control in our oblivion. Why not spend your time getting yourself ahead? Why?
Is it your duty to inform the "misinformed" about their God? why take it upon yourself to be our "savior?"
Internet Infidels' Response:
Because 1) other freethinkers are interested in our material, 2) Christians try to influence society with their beliefs, and 3) ex-Christians report that they are much happier after their deconversion than they were as a Christian.
[This message was in response to "The Parable of the Insane Dog Breeder" by Anonymous.]
I was browsing the web when I came upon your page. I must say that I feel a certain amount of sadness for the lot of you. I will pray to my Lord, and savior JESUS CHRIST, who did live, who did exist, and who I firmly believe died for all of our sins for all of you and myself as well.
Ultimately it comes down to the issue was the man called Jesus Christ who he said he was. As Saint Paul says over and over in his letters, if there was no resurection then there is no faith, and a false gospel is preached. It's true. What makes Christianity the religeon that it is is that it is founded on that fact that Christ arose from the dead.
It is the same old song, in a new suit of clothes. God gives us the choice to follow his ways and his teachings and to trust in him, or to trust in ourselves and go it alone. As a good friend of mine once said to me, "B., Aethists must have a lot more faith than me, to believe that God did not mean what he said."
I remain your brother in Christ Jesus,
Internet Infidels' Response:
Please read all of the attached "Atheism FAQs". Then you will understand that it does NOT "ultimately come down to the issue was the man called Jesus Christ who he said he was." You will learn that it ultimately comes down to whether you accept things on evidence or on faith. Please try to understand that we not only lack belief in your god, but in all gods. Unless and until you can demonstrate that it is irrational to lack belief in gods, it will be difficult to take your claims seriously.
Most atheists reject religious dogma in favor of scientific fact coupled with tight logic. Then they make up their own dogma on which to base their actions and so are no closer to truth. For a factual basis on which to base the search for a set of values try -
http://www.rtd.com/~grafpub/
[This message was in response to "The Ideology and Religion Shit List".]
Hinduism: This shit has happened before
Islam: If shit happens, take a hostage
Catholism: If shit happens, you deserve it
[This message was in response to "Who Was Jesus Christ?" by Charles Bradlaugh.]
My personal belief is that Jesus was a mortal - like ourselves who gained the full power that we as humans are also capable of - thus ascending to immortality. That is, he/she was and is an occultist who became immortal and thus have supernatural powers, and who can step out of time and travel in spirit , etc.
Since the Christ era started - all writings and works by genuises on the field of the occult of the past have been burnt in the name of witchcraft. But I believe this was cleverly implemented into the "gospels" so that Christ would become superior to anyone else - and those wishing to develop occultist powers won't be able to unrestricted - and thus never really attaining full occultist/immortality powers.
Christ was born in December, which in astrological terms - he/she is a capricious person the sign of December is a goat which represents lechery. If you read the profile of a capricornian you will see that much of the attributes do reflect Jesus/"GOD"s attitudes. For example the unjustifiable earthquakes , storms and natural disasters which seems to hit places which are of a bad repute in relation to the Bible - yet the innocents that die along - their death can only be attributed to cold blooded murder.
Capricornians are also said to be miserable type of people - seldom happy and that being with them brings misery or a sense of dark boredome that is interpreted as peace by him/her. Yet the true happiness that we humans associate with freedom / free will within the boundaries of our legal system and our modern moral beliefs are interpreted as evil by him/her. Christ is a tyrannical person, with the characteristics of Capricornians. ( You must find a good book that describes the profiles of the zodiacs test it by seeing if your sign's reading, or your friends, are more than 50% accurate)
Christ sits at the top, I believe, in the heirarchy of powerful humans. And no one can challenge his/her capricornian views for we are only mortals, and in his age/era we cannot gain the powers that resides within us - since we are closely watched and rebels no matter how well justified their cause, are culled.
I think it is very unfortunate that we have a capricornian - one of the worst signs in the zodiac governing us...Oh I forgot, I read also that Goats are heavily into science and the occult - an example is Isaac Newton who also studied the Occult, privatel of course. I think, personally that our governor should not be an animal of the zodiacs maybe the librans! who are the scales of justice, who are said to have the strongest sense of justice among humans, and the only non-animal zodiacs.
Capricornians are also said to be bigots (thus explaining the emphasis in racial identity in the bible and the impossibility in conciliating the races of the earth) lechers ( the practice of multiple wives in the times of David,etc ) capricous (never consistent and thus never honest in administrating the earth which he is claiming) and miserable. There are many others but these are the prominent ones.
For those who detest the injustice in this age , they will be happy to know that an interpretation of Nostradamus' prophecies by Cannon , mention of a Final World War brought by some anti-christ - who I hate even more than Jesus for he is mentioned to bring worse injustice during this war. Anyway for his own purposes he cleverly exposes the fallacies in the Christian belief using solid evidence which he uncovers. And at the end of the war, when true peace comes in, a new age begins when the inhibiting and capricious Christian laws no longer exists. And people at this time gain their full powers - many reaching the state of Christ, a time when our doctors-cum-occultist have the power to bring back the dead , ie we have eternal life. To make another point here, I believe that the heaven that is mentioned in the bible is the granting of immortal powers by Christ to the chosen us. But first he/she will kill/murder those "not worthy".
But if Cannon's interpretations are right - the tyrannt is overcome and all will be allowed to gain full powers and thus we will be in "heaven". This time is said to be peaceful, even when we have immortal powers since the Final War was so evil and grotesque that everyone agrees to enforce peace - all unnecessary materials are destroyed incl all weapons.
Sorry for the errors, digression et al, but internet time is somewhat precious. I could talk for hours but I may be boring or irritating you by now. So I should stop now... You can always e-mail me -but before mid March since I'm banning myself from the internet.
Dear Sir:
I am trying to locate a position paper by J. McCabe entitled, "Why I Believe In Fair Taxation Of Church Property". Can you be of any assistance.?
Thank You
Internet Infidels' Response:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/taxation_of_church.html
enjoy.
[This message was in response to "The Problem with Jesus' Arrest and Trial" by James Still.]
Dear Infidel,
I hope this mail finds you in good health and in good spirits.
I have recently read your article and I enjoyed it very much. I am a Roman Catholic and have spend most of my education, pre-college, in the Catholic school system. Having been taught the doctrine of the Church, and having read your article, I find it very interesting and somewhat refreshing.
First, I must say that, most of my previous teachers may not and probably would not have agreed with your ideas, but be that as it may, it sure "rock the boat."
As I have mentioned before, as a Catholic, I am compelled to uphold and preserve the teachings of the church. However, I find that many of the laws are not withstanding of today's cultural changes. For instant, lets take a simple topic. As you are aware, I am a physician, to be exact, I am a surgical resident. Every physician upon graduating from medical school, took an oath to heal, to relieve suffering and to practice the art of medicine with good intentions and to do no harm.
So the question that face all of us physician who are catholic is: How do we respond to the request of Euthanasia? A simple enough request by the patient or their family. Yet, many of us can't seem to get pass the "Thou shall not Kill" ideology. Is it killing to ease the patient's suffering, or is it killing to let the patient suffer for an unknown period of time.
Anyway, it would take all night and on to the next few days for me to tell you my beliefs, values and ethic. So, having read your article, I find it very "refreshing" that others may have some questions about the Bible and the teachings of the Church.
I bid you well and hope you will keep me in mind in your next article.
[This message was in response to "Origin of Free Masonry" by Thomas Paine.]
I just came across this page, so I am in no way criticizing or defending anything, especially since I've only read the first few paragraphs so far. But before I forget, there is a controversial "new chronology" being espoused by scholors that lines up Biblical and Egyption historical accounts, as well as others. Anyway, now I'll read the rest. Thanks.
[This message was in response to "Life in Our Anti-Christian America" by Rob Berry .]
excellent article! I laughed my belief-lacking butt off!
Here's my contribution:
Atheists offen try to scare Christians into disbelief by yelling that after they die they will be sent to the earth's firey core and tormented by Nietzsche for eternity.
Internet Infidels' Response:
Thanks. I've added your contribution to the article. Check http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html
To the AHA:
I am a journalism major at Western Washington University. Last week, I was flipping through the latest issue of the campus newspaper when I saw a simple, text-only advertisement entitled "What Is Secular Humanism?" I read it and was absolutely astonished -- here was an outline of a belief system I've employed since breaking away from the Catholic church at the tender age of 12.
I've managed to hook up with the AHA's web page and read some of the doctrines, and, for the most part, our thoughts run parallel. However, I'm curious about how humanists view the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being. I once considered myself atheist, but the complexity and pattern of space sometimes seem to indicate some kind of structural planning. For this reason, I've used the "agnostic" label for several years, but that never addressed my faith (and, truly, it is a *faith*) in humanity itself.
Many religious people have asked me what my impetus for living is, since I don't rely on belief in a higher power or an afterlife. When I answer "YOU," they never seem to understand...
Sincerely,
To whom it may concern: As a Christian, who has searched for other true religions, I am left with the conclusion that only the Bible is divinely inspired. While you can produce evidence to discredit almost any claim, the Bible, and only the Bible, shows evidence that it was inspired by God. For example, the claim that the theory of evolution has replaced a Creator has been proven false in this generation: Cosmology has proven there was a beginning; DNA modeling has proven there has not been enough time or matter to bring about life by chance; and the missing-link, despite repeated hoaxes has never been found.
One example that the Bible is insprired by God can be found in the book of Matthew. Here is your assignment, and you can use any technology available to solve it: Design a genealogy, of actual people, with the following paramaters:
1- The # of words in it must be divisible by 7 evenly. (That's easy)
2- The # of letters must also be divisible by 7. (No problem- computer)
3- The # of vowels and and the # of consonants must also be divisible by 7.
4- The # of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by 7(maybe a Cray super-computer will help?)
5- The # of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by 7. (you can even call NASA to help, but remember the rules: It has to be an existing langauge and the names must currently be in use).
6- The # of words that occur more than once must be divisible by 7.
7- The # of words that occur in more than one form shall be divisible by 7.
8- The # of words that occur in only one form shall be divisible by 7.
9- The number of nouns shall be divisible by 7. (Remember you can't call on God for help until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.)
10- Only 7 words shall NOT be nouns.
11- The # of names in the genealogy shall be divisible by 7.
12- Only 7 other kinds of nouns are permitted.
13- The # of male names shall be divisible by 7.
14- The # of generations shall be divisible by 7.
(Source: McCormack, R., "The Heptadic Structure of Scripture", Marshall Brothers Ltd., london, 1923)
Sounds impossible, but this is the genealogy of Jesus Christ, in Greek, in Matthew chapter 1.
Other examples are too numerous to mention here.
Ultimately, accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is an act of faith. But, from my perspective, it takes more faith to believe we are here by random chance then to believe (as I do) that we are created by a loving God, And despite are rebellion, he has given us eternal life for the asking. But, God will not violate your free will. He offers His Son freely, but we must respond. Whether we like it or not, there is a part of man that is eternal (spirit/soul), and we will live the rest of eternity either in the presence of the almighty God or be cast for eternity into darkness.
If you doubt God's existence, seek Him with your whole heart. He says He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Internet Infidels' Response #1:
> To whom it may concern: As a Christian, who has searched for other true
> religions, I am left with the conclusion that only the Bible is divinely
> inspired. While you can produce evidence to discredit almost any claim,
> the Bible, and only the Bible, shows evidence that it was inspired by
>
God.
As someone who once claimed to be a Christian but now claims to be agnostic, I searched for evidence that Christianity is true. I read about the ontological argument, the cosmomloical argument, the design argument, the moral argument, alleged Biblical prophecies, Jesus' resurrection, etc. and realized that none of these were very convincing to me. I certainly don't think the Bible is the inspired Word of God (tm). I recommend you check out _Beyond Fundamentalism_ by James Barr. Barr is a mainstream Christian theologian who refutes the fundamentalist notion that the Bible is the Word of God. Also, check out Farrell Till's magazine, _The Skeptical Review_, which is available at http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/.
> For example, the claim that the theory of evolution has replaced a
> Creator has been proven false in this generation: Cosmology has proven
> there was a beginning;
You seem to be confusing cosmology with biological evolution. According to the Big Bang theory, space, time, energy, and matter came into in existence in an explosion billions of years ago. According to biological evolution, species developed naturalistically from a common ancestor. It is unclear how the Big Bang theory contradicts biological evolution. If anybody's world-view is threatened by the Big Bang theory, I'd have to say it's yours. The Big Bang theory flatly contradicts your world view's belief that the universe is only thousands, not billions, of years old.
[snip]
> Ultimately, accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is an act of